Dutch Boyd, is this true?

[Dan Druff]

Some people are finally waking up to the fact that Kickstarter is a legal scam -- something I like to call a semi-scam.

Oculus was funded by almost 10,000 people on Kickstarter for a combined $2.4 million. It sold to Facebook this week for $2 billion.

How much equity did the Kickstarter funders of Oculus get?



Well, that's not true. They got a t-shirt.

http://www.bloombergview.com/article...-us-your-money

[yaahello]

weren't they also on shark tank and didn't get an offer ?

[WillieMcFML]

I saw Dutch last weekend at the wsopc stop and he was wearing a filthy poker tilt.com patch

Some nerve, since it's been almost a year and still no book for the poor schmucks who donated

[zealanddonk]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...the-game/posts

Why would backers have any equity in the company when ZERO POINT ZERO of the pledge levels mention ZERO POINT ZERO ownership of the company in any form, other than getting a development kit when its available.

[gauchojake]

I believe that companies using crowd funding cannot legally offer equity. There is legislation looking to change that, but as for now, you get nothing! Good day sir!

[gauchojake]

I believe that companies using crowd funding cannot legally offer equity. There is legislation looking to change that, but as for now, you get nothing! Good day sir!

Actually it looks lie it's legal but only to specific types of investors (high income, high net worth)

[BeerAndPoker]

[SrslySirius]

Participants in Kickstarter are not promised any equity and donations are not considered an investment. I would agree that crowdfunding is a scam if they were deceived somehow, but it's stated very clearly what you get in return for your donations.

[Dan Druff]

Participants in Kickstarter are not promised any equity and donations are not considered an investment. I would agree that crowdfunding is a scam if they were deceived somehow, but it's stated very clearly what you get in return for your donations.

I call it a semi-scam because people aren't made to fully understand the ramifications of what they're doing.

If Kickstarter donors were led to believe that the person/company might profit hugely from the "donation", they might think twice about donating like this. Most are just generous saps who think they are helping someone in need or helping a product become reality that will be of public interest.

So people see Oculus and think, "Wow, I'm a gamer, I'd love to see virtual reality taken to the next level! Take my money!" And that sounds well and good, until you realize that the person took your donation and parlayed it into $2 billion while you walk away with nothing.

As I said on radio last week, I think Kickstarter is appropriate for something like crowdfunding a SrslySirius video about PFA, where the funders get something out of it (seeing a video they will enjoy), and yet the product produced is unlikely to carry any real value outside of this small community.

It is not good to fund for-profit ventures, as you're just a big sucker if you donate to that.

[zealanddonk]

Participants in Kickstarter are not promised any equity and donations are not considered an investment. I would agree that crowdfunding is a scam if they were deceived somehow, but it's stated very clearly what you get in return for your donations.

I call it a semi-scam because people aren't made to fully understand the ramifications of what they're doing.

Baseless speculation on your part Druff.

Where exactly does it say in the Kickstarter "We will be a very small company that will never gain additional funding from any source or sell out in any way".

This is only a scam or fraud if the pledgers don't get their occulus rifts delivered in a reasonable timeframe after they were promised.

There have been a number of KS projects that have either been direct scams or ended up fraudulently, you are better served going after those and understanding them, then complain about this when it is neither a scam nor a fraud.

[zealanddonk]

Also to put Druff's crusade into perspective, a total of $38290 out of $2,437,429 (1.6%) were pledges that did not involve a reward level that gave a prototype kit or other hardware.

[lewfather]

Hey druff you ever see a man drink his own piss?

[4Dragons]

Hey druff you ever see a man drink his own piss?

[gut]

Unless kickstarter started using the term "investment" instead of "donation", I do not see how this is a scam in any way.

EDIT: basically what srslysrs said above.

EDIT2: referring to Occulus obv, not Dutch.

[SeaCow]

The kid is from my hometown. Ill see him from time to time in various local card spots. He doesn't plug the book like I thought he would.

[SrslySirius]

I call it a semi-scam because people aren't made to fully understand the ramifications of what they're doing.

If Kickstarter donors were led to believe that the person/company might profit hugely from the "donation", they might think twice about donating like this. Most are just generous saps who think they are helping someone in need or helping a product become reality that will be of public interest.

So people see Oculus and think, "Wow, I'm a gamer, I'd love to see virtual reality taken to the next level! Take my money!" And that sounds well and good, until you realize that the person took your donation and parlayed it into $2 billion while you walk away with nothing.

As I said on radio last week, I think Kickstarter is appropriate for something like crowdfunding a SrslySirius video about PFA, where the funders get something out of it (seeing a video they will enjoy), and yet the product produced is unlikely to carry any real value outside of this small community.

It is not good to fund for-profit ventures, as you're just a big sucker if you donate to that.

If you want to reshape the argument to saying that it's a sucker move to donate for-profit ventures, then you make a perfectly valid point. When Veronica Mars and Zach Braff beg their fans for money on crowdsourcing websites, it somewhat rubs me the wrong way too. Then again, I can understand how people might be so passionate about seeing a project completed. If in some alternate universe Kickstarter exists in 2001 and South Park gets cancelled, I would snap-ship Trey Parker 30 bucks to ensure that a 6th season gets created. I wouldn't care if he made millions off it. I'd be happy with my new DVD and assurance that the show goes on. You might think me a sucker, but I'd consider it great value.

I can't think of many other scenarios that would compel me to fund a Kickstarter initiative, but I'm sure many others are finding value as well, considering how popular it is.

[SrslySirius]

Perhaps a better word (than scam or semi-scam) to describe a flaw in Kickstarter is exploitation. In the example above, if Trey Parker is easily capable of raising money through loans and such, then it would be a scumbag move to take money from fans. That's probably a shitty example now that I think more about it. What Zach Braff did was exploitative. Millionaires should not use Kickstarter.

That wasn't the case with Occulus though, if I understand the situation correctly. They were just a small startup that was likely going to fail.

[4Dragons]

Perhaps a better word (than scam or semi-scam) to describe a flaw in Kickstarter is exploitation. In the example above, if Trey Parker is easily capable of raising money through loans and such, then it would be a scumbag move to take money from fans. That's probably a shitty example now that I think more about it. What Zach Braff did was exploitative. Millionaires should not use Kickstarter.

That wasn't the case with Occulus though, if I understand the situation correctly. They were just a small startup that was likely going to fail.

In the high profile cases where kickstarter was having big names do things to raise funds for projects, it was kickstarter that was trying to elevate their own profile in doing those things. They never expected that it would backfire in just the terms you put it. I honestly feel the same about Dutch here, if that shitheel can't get a publisher through the traditional route, fuck him, no kickstarter for you. The pathetic self-entitled spoilage that it reeks of is stomach turning.

[lvpkr1009]

Druff I think you are confused about this (at least not wording it right) kick starter isn't the scam here, Dutch is the scam. Tossing someone a little bit of cash for an idea is fine, it's when that person has no intention of completing the task that he's a scammer.

If someone had a great idea and I gave them some money I wouldn't expect anything in return even if they made billions off of it. I'd tip my hat, say congrats and take some satisfaction that I had a small part in that as part of a collective effort. There's a big difference between tossing someone 25 or 50 bucks to help and investing 20k in hopes of getting a return on it. If I wanted to do something more I would contact the people directly and offer a larger investment for a share of profits

[Dan Druff]

I just think Kickstarter should separate for-profit and non-profit efforts on the site, and the for-profit efforts should be clearly explained to all donors, so they are clearly understanding that they are giving money to someone who will turn around and attempt to make a big profit from it.

I think a lot of the people donating just aren't thinking it through. They think they're just being nice/generous, when in reality they are putting up funding for a for-profit business and getting nothing in return. For-profit businesses don't deserve charity, especially from the general public.