Poker pros' objections to $10m WSOP 1st prize rattles WSOP bigwigs, causes unexpected major change in payouts

On December 24, Brian Reinert brought up an objection on Twitter to the $10 Million guarantee for the WSOP first prize. He felt that it was taking away from the poker community, because that money basically disappears from the poker economy. Reinert and several others advocated for a much flatter payout structure, with some players even saying that 20% of the field should be paid, rather than 10%. (Interestingly, that 20% would have really helped me, as I finished in the top 20% from 2011-2013 and received nothing.)

At the time, this was met with a lot of defensivess from tournament director Jack Effel and his boss Ty Stewart. They kept insisting that they were appealing to recreational players with the $10 million dream, but the pros countered that recreational players know that they are highly unlikely to see that $10 million, and instead would be thrilled with just cashing.

Effel then made a laughable statement that rec players don't care about min-cashing.

I countered by asking Effel why it takes hours for the Main Event bubble to burst if nobody cares about cashing.

Here's writeup of the situation from a month ago:

http://www.parttimepoker.com/poker-c...on-first-prize


And while it looked like the WSOP brass was digging their heels in and refusing to do anything about it, I received the following surprising e-mail from Seth Palansky today, which went out to all poker media members.

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$10 Million 1st Place Guarantee Removed

LAS VEGAS (Jan. 27, 2015) – The World Series of Poker has made a change to its payout structure for the Main Event, replacing the $10 million first place guarantee in favor of guaranteeing 1,000* places receiving winnings.

“The dream of life-changing money is core to the DNA of the WSOP Main Event and we also want to make it easier to experience playing in poker’s Big Show,” said WSOP Executive Director Ty Stewart. “Our players understand numbers, and 2015 now presents the best odds ever to leave the Main Event a winner.”

With a strategy to more broadly distribute the prize pool, the WSOP Main Event will still award a massive prize to its Champion. If participation numbers are the same as 2014 (6,683) the 2015 winner would receive $8,000,000, a prize consistent to winners of the past decade before last year’s $10 million first place prize to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the event at the Rio. In addition, all final table participants would receive at least $1 million.

Using the 2014 Main Event entry number – 6,683 entries – the 2015 Main Event payout structure would look like this: (It is important to note the final payout structure will be determined based on number of 2015 entries)

· 1st place: $8,000,000
· 2nd place: $4,663,527
· 3rd place: $3,500,000
· 4th place: $2,750,000
· 5th place: $2,000,000
· 6th place: $1,500,000
· 7th place: $1,250,000
· 8th place: $1,100,000
· 9th place: $1,000,000
· 10-12th place: $550,000
· 50th place: $142,500
· 100th place: $50,000
· 500th place: $20,850
· 693rd place: $16,750 (last year’s last paid place)
· 694-1,000 place: $15,000

The WSOP recognizes the Main Event is a unique tournament onto itself, given the highly international field, percentage of repeat players and lofty $10,000 buy-in. The WSOP believes paying a higher percentage of players in this particular event, (based on last year’s entry figure would be akin to 15 percent of the field – nearly 50% more players than previously) will encourage both new and repeat participation for the Main Event, and thus an increased prize pool.

The current slate of individual events offered during the 46th Annual WSOP is almost finalized, with 60+ official gold bracelet events on tap and will be announced in full in the coming days.

* The event must have a minimum 5,000 entrants in order to pay 1,000 places.

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So basically they will be paying 1000 people, no matter how many entrants there are (provided there are over 5,000, which there will be.)

With an expected 6800 or so entrants (I think that's a good over/under), that means they will be paying almost the top 15%, unless there is an unexpected rise in entrants. Still, unless there are 10,000 entrants, this is a much flatter payout.

Of course, that payout is only $15k, meaning you are making just $5k on a $10k buyin.

Still, I think this is a great move, and good for the poker economy.

They finally realized that the huge money payouts are going to pros, which disappears into a black hole and is never seen by the community again.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Effel then made a laughable statement that rec players don't care about min-cashing.

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I agree with his statement. Rec players don't go to the WSOP ME to finish just to the good side of the bubble. They are dreaming of making the final table and making a big score. These rec players are not trying to grind out a living at the poker table, but make good bucks in the real world and don't need a min cash.

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Originally Posted by herbertstemple

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Effel then made a laughable statement that rec players don't care about min-cashing.

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I agree with his statement. Rec players don't go to the WSOP ME to finish just to the good side of the bubble. They are dreaming of making the final table and making a big score. These rec players are not trying to grind out a living at the poker table, but make good bucks in the real world and don't need a min cash.

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So if that's true, why do all of the recs go into such a panic at bubble time, trying to nurse the tiniest of tiny stacks so they can get the mincash payday?

Because that's what they do.

Do they show up with the goal of mincashing?

No.

But once they get short stacked near the bubble, the $10 million dreams go up in smoke, and suddenly hitting the $20k payday (and being able to say they cashed in the Main) becomes much more important than slightly increasing their chance at an epic comeback parlayed into a final table appearance.

In fact, in such a situation, I bet if you approached these rec players and offered to give them a min cash payout right now, but also take away their chips and deny them the chance of making more, most would probably say yes.

Most importantly, I don't think the prospect of winning $8 million makes the WSOP any less appealing to a rec than the prospect of $10 million. It's all in the same ballpark of "life changing money" for almost everyone playing.

The whole point is to get the most players in the tourney. More, smaller payouts not going to do that. Big payouts will do that. The bigger prize they can advertise, the more players they will get. Its the law of big numbers.

Do more people buy the powerball lottery tickets when the jackpot is $10 mil or when its $200 mil?

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Originally Posted by herbertstemple

The whole point is to get the most players in the tourney. More, smaller payouts not going to do that. Big payouts will do that. The bigger prize they can advertise, the more players they will get. Its the rule of big numbers.

Do more people buy the powerball lottery tickets when the jackpot is $10 mil or when its $200 mil?

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200 mill yes. Difference between 8 and 10 mill no.

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Originally Posted by simpdog

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Originally Posted by herbertstemple

The whole point is to get the most players in the tourney. More, smaller payouts not going to do that. Big payouts will do that. The bigger prize they can advertise, the more players they will get. Its the rule of big numbers.

Do more people buy the powerball lottery tickets when the jackpot is $10 mil or when its $200 mil?

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200 mill yes. Difference between 8 and 10 mill no.

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A 10 mil first place prize for WSOP ME is something that can be marketed very strongly. It has much more standing than even a 9.9 mil prize. 10 mil is a milestone, a magic number. Instead there will be a bunch of humps trying to grind out a 3k or 4k payday. Tourneys should be about the final table and 1st place, not who finished in 1183rd place.

With all due respect Herbert's temple.I do agree with the lotto analogy..however I truly think based on my behavior and the behaviors of my contemporaries. Poker tournaments are different..on the low and yes micro tournaments I play several times daily ( I'll wait for everyone to stop laughing) we play to try to win but the benefits of a tournament is the largest payout field..when I want to go upscale and enter a 40 plus 4 tournament I only am willing to spend that money at least knowing I HAVE A CHANCE TO BREAK EVEN and maybe a profit..though I agree with the lotto mentality I think tournies are a different "head" now what the complaints about taking money out of the poker community that druff agrees with is BULLSHIT..THERE JUST FUCKED UP THEY CAN'T WAIT IN THE WINGS AND TAKE IT OUT THEMSELVES..BUM HUNTING OR WHATEVER..THEY DON'T PLAY PEOPLE OF EQUAL SKILL LEVEL..TALK ABOUT SPIN!?! And for the record I only play take5 no lotto or mega. Won second place twice and a coworker got a 60k jackpot. And maybe ,dozens of 3place for 30 bucks I've won..lotto is disrespectful 1 place millions second place like a metrocard and a 30 day trial of Netflix..lol

P.s I understand you play tournies to win..but AT ANY LEVEL it's nice knowing you have broken the bubble..Evan though more people play lotto when it hits 100million with disrespectful secondary prizes I think if it went to 90 million jackpot but hitting 5place for 25k was doable EVAN more people would play.

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Originally Posted by thesparten

With all due respect Herbert's temple.I do agree with the lotto analogy..however I truly think based on my behavior and the behaviors of my contemporaries. Poker tournaments are different..on the low and yes micro tournaments I play several times daily ( I'll wait for everyone to stop laughing) we play to try to win but the benefits of a tournament is the largest payout field..when I want to go upscale and enter a 40 plus 4 tournament I only am willing to spend that money at least knowing I HAVE A CHANCE TO BREAK EVEN and maybe a profit..though I agree with the lotto mentality I think tournies are a different "head" now what the complaints about taking money out of the poker community that druff agrees with is BULLSHIT..THERE JUST FUCKED UP THEY CAN'T WAIT IN THE WINGS AND TAKE IT OUT THEMSELVES..BUM HUNTING OR WHATEVER..THEY DON'T PLAY PEOPLE OF EQUAL SKILL LEVEL..TALK ABOUT SPIN!?! And for the record I only play take5 no lotto or mega. Won second place twice and a coworker got a 60k jackpot. And maybe ,dozens of 3place for 30 bucks I've won..lotto is disrespectful 1 place millions second place like a metrocard and a 30 day trial of Netflix..lol

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Its a whole different mindset. Its one thing to sit at your PC and try to grind out some money and another trying to reach and convince someone that otherwise would only consider playing in the ME to go and actually play. I don't think you reach this person with dreams of breaking even. This is someone that the 10K isn't a major deal to. Its going to be a vacation for them. The big payout would be the draw, not the chance to kiss your sister.

Understood, and your statements are logical and we'll thought out as usual however..wouldn't an 8mill payout with a thousand winners bring in so many more players that were on the fence..a cash out at the wsop is bragging rights in itself..I see some of your point I played a 3 $ winner take all tournies and won ,303$ would have really sucked to come in 2nd(your allowed to giggle)..I'm new to this game I'm playing my first live tournament at the borgata in Jersey in a couple of weeks..just a 250 entry..I guess it all comes down to personal strategy..I still think that to advertise 1000 spots with 8 mill first would get more entries but less t.v and newspaper play..

MY SINCEREST APOLOGIES TODD FOR MY PREVIOUS POST ABOUT YOU IN THIS THREAD..I MISUNDERSTOOD..I LISTENED FOR A SECOND TIME..IT WAS A REALLY ROUGH DAY AT WORK HAD A COUPLE..ONCE AGAIN SORRY AND I RETRACT.