2 hands in limit holdem to briefly discuss

Hand #1:

You have Td8d in the SB in a 3-handed $30/$60 online game against 2 reasonable players...

Pre:
BTN raise
SB (you) calls (3-bet is ok here too, and the postflop play will differ significantly if you do)
BB calls

Flop:
AKJ rainbow, one diamond

Checks around.

Turn 7d

Obviously you can't fold here no matter what. But do you bet, check/call, or check/raise?

Check/raise is the worst option because it's spewing from behind in a situation where the opponent is unlikely to fold. Maybe can be a good NL tricky play, but at limit this would be horrible.

And while check/call is reasonable, I recommend betting in this spot.

But why? Isn't betting also spewing, given the 3 coordinated high cards?

No. Because there's actually a decent chance both opponents will fold. Let's look at each one....

BB could have almost anything, including a lot of hands which completely miss this board (basically two cards 9 or under). Even with a Q or T (something like Q8, T6, etc), you are unlikely to see a call in a pot of this size. You're likely only getting a call from a pair or better here.

And the button? His check-back on a AKJ rainbow flop is a HUGE clue. It means he hates the flop. Very few hands check that back, due to the straight possibility on the turn. Maybe QT does, hoping to trap, but even AA/KK/JJ won't typically want to give a free card here. The rainbow flop also means that there wasn't a flush draw that the player wanted cheaply. For example, had it been AKJ with two spades, you could argue maybe the button has 6s7s. But not here. This check back almost 100% indicates a miss.

Betting from the SB on the turn looks strong because you're firing into 2 players with 3 high cards on the board. This will negate some of the skepticism that you don't have big cards due to your lack of 3-bet pre. You could easily have something like J7 here.

The bottom line is that a double fold is likely enough to be worth firing. And if for some reason you get called or raised, you still have outs to a queen or a diamond.

Now, is this an advanced play to bet a fairly big draw into 2 players when it checks around on the flop? No.

But there's many other cases where you should NOT do this. For example, say you had the Ts8s in the BB, and the button raised pre, the SB 3-bet, you called, and the button called. There it is almost certain that one of the two hit some of the AKJ board, so you should NOT bet if it checks around the flop. There you would check/call, as betting is just spewing into better made hands.

Much of limit holdem is knowing when your semibluffs will work, and when they will just be spewing money when a dog to win the hand.

Hand #2

4-handed $30/$60 limit holdem game. You are SB with Ts9s, and it folds to you. BB seems reasonable.

You raise, BB calls.

Flop:
7s4s2h

It is reasonable either bet or check/call here. Bet can take the pot down here if opponent missed. Check/call can both save money if you would otherwise get raised (as this flop can hit a lot of the opponent's range), as well as confuse the opponent if the spade does hit.

In this exercise we will bet the flop. Opponent calls.

Turn:
Ad

Well, that's not what you wanted to see. But is it that bad? Your opponent has given no indication he has an ace, as he did not raise pre. It's not impossible he has an ace (some opponents like to just call from the BB to an SB raise when holding an A, especially a lower one), but it's more likely he does NOT have an ace.

Furthermore, your opponent probably did not have a pair on the flop. Why? He is likely raising if he had a 4 or 7, and maybe even if he had a 2. Why? Because in most SB/BB confrontations, flopping a pair in the BB is the best hand.

So if for your opponent you can mostly rule out a 7/4/2 pair, and can mostly rule out an ace, what exactly are you afraid of? Plus you still have outs. So you should bet and hope to take this down right here.

Opponent calls.

River:
Ah

Well, this isn't what you wanted, either. Now you have T high. Time to check/fold?

No. Beleive it or not, you need to either bet (and fold to a raise) or check/call.

Check/call? With 10 high??

Yes. I would advise betting here, as you now run off better hands which might not be able to find a call, such as Q or K high. Why would Q/K high have called the flop and turn? Sometimes they do, even with nowhere to go, especially K high. You can also easily fold if raised. What if they're bluff raising you with worse? Not that likely. They probably would have done that on the turn.

But you can also check/call as I mentioned. Why? Because it isn't that likely your opponent has an ace, and it isn't that likely they have pair (for reasons already stated). So then what would they have if they bet? J/Q/K high is happy to see a free showdown at this point (having called down with shit the entire way), and isn't typically betting. A betting hand is either a disguised monster (bad), or a missed draw with showdown value even worse than yours (good). The latter is MORE likely if a bet is placed at this point. You could be up against all kinds of missed straight draws or missed flush draws. You can call with the T9 high here (kicker is good, by the way), and shock your opponent when they show 58 and you take it down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Hand #1:

You have Td8d in the SB in a 3-handed $30/$60 online game against 2 reasonable players...

Pre:
BTN raise
SB (you) calls (3-bet is ok here too, and the postflop play will differ significantly if you do)
BB calls

Flop:
AKJ rainbow, one diamond

Checks around.

Turn 7d

Obviously you can't fold here no matter what. But do you bet, check/call, or check/raise?

Check/raise is the worst option because it's spewing from behind in a situation where the opponent is unlikely to fold. Maybe can be a good NL tricky play, but at limit this would be horrible.

And while check/call is reasonable, I recommend betting in this spot.

But why? Isn't betting also spewing, given the 3 coordinated high cards?

No. Because there's actually a decent chance both opponents will fold. Let's look at each one....

BB could have almost anything, including a lot of hands which completely miss this board (basically two cards 9 or under). Even with a Q or T (something like Q8, T6, etc), you are unlikely to see a call in a pot of this size. You're likely only getting a call from a pair or better here.

And the button? His check-back on a AKJ rainbow flop is a HUGE clue. It means he hates the flop. Very few hands check that back, due to the straight possibility on the turn. Maybe QT does, hoping to trap, but even AA/KK/JJ won't typically want to give a free card here. The rainbow flop also means that there wasn't a flush draw that the player wanted cheaply. For example, had it been AKJ with two spades, you could argue maybe the button has 6s7s. But not here. This check back almost 100% indicates a miss.

Betting from the SB on the turn looks strong because you're firing into 2 players with 3 high cards on the board. This will negate some of the skepticism that you don't have big cards due to your lack of 3-bet pre. You could easily have something like J7 here.

The bottom line is that a double fold is likely enough to be worth firing. And if for some reason you get called or raised, you still have outs to a queen or a diamond.

Now, is this an advanced play to bet a fairly big draw into 2 players when it checks around on the flop? No.

But there's many other cases where you should NOT do this. For example, say you had the Ts8s in the BB, and the button raised pre, the SB 3-bet, you called, and the button called. There it is almost certain that one of the two hit some of the AKJ board, so you should NOT bet if it checks around the flop. There you would check/call, as betting is just spewing into better made hands.

Much of limit holdem is knowing when your semibluffs will work, and when they will just be spewing money when a dog to win the hand.

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Since it’s close, I’d bet here half the time and check/call half the time. I’d never check raise (not my style), but if you do, you have to bet out no matter what and it’s really hard to pick up the pot with a bluff on the river. But you said the players are “reasonable”, so maybe they are capable of folding for one big bet.