Given the limitations of the owners, how has 2+2 become and remained such a big force in the forum world

This thought came to me because of a post made by o: on Donkdown, so wanted to give credit where credit was due. Basically, my question is how did 2+2 become the de facto leader of internet poker message boards, especially given the ownership. I have never met either, but from reading about them over the years it seems:

1. Mason Malmuth is allegedly an unfriendly, unpersonable life nit that grinds low limit live poker
2. David Sklansky is allegedly a womanizer and sex freak, who has allegedly had seemingly inappropriate relationships with girls much younger than him (possibly minors? I am not sure the exact ages of the girls or the laws in Nevada), with 1 being mentally handicapped who lived with him several years (and may still be living with him). Additionally he seemed to play a pretty big role in the Brandy situation, yet all of this was seemingly swept under the rug, ignored and forgotten.

-Not exactly the resume one would assume would lead one to the top of the poker internet board world. In addition, Mason especially seems to run the board like a petty dictator and neither are that involved in any of the discussions, yet the site keeps getting bigger and bigger and they keep getting richer and richer.

-Aside from writing some poker theory works pre poker boom, neither has contributed very much to the world of poker or is noted as a good player at any form of poker. Yet their forum is far and away the top dog in town. I guess you can use the argument they were there first and rode the wave of momentum. However, Planet Poker was the first poker site and we see how much that helped them stand the test of time.

Druff, or anyone else that may have an opinion on how 2+2 managed to become the colossus it is and stand the test of time, given the less than impressive resume of its founders and owners?

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Originally Posted by verminaard

This thought came to me because of a post made by o: on Donkdown, so wanted to give credit where credit was due. Basically, my question is how did 2+2 become the de facto leader of internet poker message boards, especially given the ownership. I have never met either, but from reading about them over the years it seems:

1. Mason Malmuth is allegedly an unfriendly, unpersonable life nit that grinds low limit live poker
2. David Sklansky is allegedly a womanizer and sex freak, who has allegedly had seemingly inappropriate relationships with girls much younger than him (possibly minors? I am not sure the exact ages of the girls or the laws in Nevada), with 1 being mentally handicapped who lived with him several years (and may still be living with him). Additionally he seemed to play a pretty big role in the Brandy situation, yet all of this was seemingly swept under the rug, ignored and forgotten.

-Not exactly the resume one would assume would lead one to the top of the poker internet board world. In addition, Mason especially seems to run the board like a petty dictator and neither are that involved in any of the discussions, yet the site keeps getting bigger and bigger and they keep getting richer and richer.

-Aside from writing some poker theory works pre poker boom, neither has contributed very much to the world of poker or is noted as a good player at any form of poker. Yet their forum is far and away the top dog in town. I guess you can use the argument they were there first and rode the wave of momentum. However, Planet Poker was the first poker site and we see how much that helped them stand the test of time.

Druff, or anyone else that may have an opinion on how 2+2 managed to become the colossus it is and stand the test of time, given the less than impressive resume of its founders and owners?

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Simple....People don't post on twoplustwo because of the owners...Just like most message boards. Donkdown was atypical in that way.

That doesn't really answer the question. I mean I understand why Donkdown/NW never really competed given its mostly unmoderated nature that would turn most people off. However, how come none of the other message boards with owners that were much more compelling figures in the poker world (ie Daniel N's forum) were able to compete with 2+2? What exactly was it that David and Mason did right to make sure they started out on top and stayed on top all these years?

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Originally Posted by verminaard

That doesn't really answer the question. I mean I understand why Donkdown/NW never really competed given its mostly unmoderated nature that would turn most people off. However, how come none of the other message boards with owners that were much more compelling figures in the poker world (ie Daniel N's forum) were able to compete with 2+2? What exactly was it that David and Mason did right to make sure they started out on top and stayed on top all these years?

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Twoplustwo had a huge lead on everyone. Aside from rec gambling poker there was nothing out there. Twoplustwo was around long before poker was cool and as such capitalized hugely. If you wanted to talk poker strategy is was pretty much the only choice and where the smartest guys hung out. On top of it there was tons of cross promotion with the forum and other activities.

People underestimate the sheer size of twoplustwo. They have sub forums which are larger than most message boards.

First mover advantage. Why do people buy books from amazon or sell shit on ebay when there are hundreds of online shops and auction sites.

4 got a critical mass to the point that 90+% of posters there probably don't know other sites are available.

I can't stand 4 personally I spend every post trying to get banned but somehow have failed to manage it.

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Simple....People don't post on twoplustwo because of the owners...Just like most message boards.

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hey genius

2+2 happens to be one of the most heavily trafficked message forums on the internet PERIOD

I believe it ranks in the top 50

you are a moron btw

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Originally Posted by GOD

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Simple....People don't post on twoplustwo because of the owners...Just like most message boards.

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hey genius

2+2 happens to be one of the most heavily trafficked message forums on the internet PERIOD

I believe it ranks in the top 50

you are a moron btw

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Maybe you should learn to read before calling someone a moron....

I hope you;re still drunk otherwise what's your excuse?

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Originally Posted by GOD

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Simple....People don't post on twoplustwo because of the owners...Just like most message boards.

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hey genius

2+2 happens to be one of the most heavily trafficked message forums on the internet PERIOD

I believe it ranks in the top 50

you are a moron btw

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Massive, MASSIVE reading comprehension fail.

You want to know why 2+2 does so well?

On a virgin web browser if you enter into a google search 2+ GOOGLE itself will fucking assume you mean 2+2 and try to auto complete for you. I point out virgin web browser meaning it's not google basing the idea off your past behavior- it's just that a lot of damn people search for the site like that.

Like all things message forums are largely juggernauts in that they can be TOUGH to get off the ground but once one is really moving it takes a LOT to stop it.

A huge ACTIVE user base is so crucial- for example, let's take an imaginary forum owner and hypothesize that I don't know, he fucks a retarded girl and has her dress up like a 7 year old. Little hat and everything. The scandal breaks and people are really disgusted by the whole thing. Several hundred walk away from the site forever. Things seem bad.

Until a week goes by and many thousands have come onto the site and either not paid attention enough to be affected or heard and didn't care. Still more time goes by and newer members never hear about what happened- we will just say something silly, like I don't know- MAYBE THE OWNERS CENSOR THE CONTENT ON THEIR FORUM- something whacky like that- and the whole ball of wax keeps rolling.

My point- they have accumulated SO MANY people that controversy and scandal are just grains of sand to a locomotive. Enough sand can certainly derail the train but it takes more sand than you will presumably see at any given time.

Hell let me give another great example of what a monster user base can do.

Years past I started out on message forums on a site called Elite Fitness. Back in 2001 it was very different than today. We were pioneers, the internet was young and steroids were illegal but not hunted like today. It was pre-GHB bust, when Monster went down. Back then Elite just CRUSHED what you think of as a "Successful" forum. Today a close second would be getbig.com Often you can't fucking post because a little error box pops up when someone has posted since you clicked submit. So, for sometimes 4-5 minutes you have to just keep hitting ok ok ok trying to squeeze a fucking post in there. It gets crazy.

Elite smashed it back in the day. George Spellwin built the perfect beast and may that man BURN IN HELL for selling out the way that he did. Elite was one of the first I can remember to change from being an open and free forum to actually requiring paid membership in order to READ the threads there. You get to read like 10 threads or posts or something insane and then you are ip banned until you pony up some cash.

Sound bad? Tip of the iceberg. Spellwin then sold the site in the middle of the night and vanished. Anyone with message forum experience can tell you right off the bat that changing owners (abruptly at that) is so very often certain death for a site.

Yeah he took it further than that. In his wake the good solid bros that were moderating all left and were replaced by scumbags and snake oil salesmen. Idiots like need2getaas took over and pretended to be bastions of knowledge and credibility yet in reality they wanted (want I should say) to make a buck at all costs. You ask them anything and every answer somehow leads to you needing some crappy supplements they "promote, out of the kindness of their hearts". Yeah bullshit, they are all co-owners of this snake oil bullshit.

Long story short- a very good forum was literally incinerated beyond recognition and it STILL thrives today. Change in ownership, change in policy, change in moderators, completely devoid of credibility or honor and it is STILL a huge thriving site. Having a large user base really does mean that much. In fact your user base is EVERYTHING if you are a forum owner.

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

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Originally Posted by verminaard

That doesn't really answer the question. I mean I understand why Donkdown/NW never really competed given its mostly unmoderated nature that would turn most people off. However, how come none of the other message boards with owners that were much more compelling figures in the poker world (ie Daniel N's forum) were able to compete with 2+2? What exactly was it that David and Mason did right to make sure they started out on top and stayed on top all these years?

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Twoplustwo had a huge lead on everyone. Aside from rec gambling poker there was nothing out there. Twoplustwo was around long before poker was cool and as such capitalized hugely. If you wanted to talk poker strategy is was pretty much the only choice and where the smartest guys hung out. On top of it there was tons of cross promotion with the forum and other activities.

People underestimate the sheer size of twoplustwo. They have sub forums which are larger than most message boards.

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the rec gambling poker message board crap thing that used to be out there up until around 2001....can't really remember.... may still even be around.... but doyle brunson and negreanu used to post on it along with some of the big names.... i guess malmuth (asshat) and sklansky must have made a better design and people fled to it.