When is a bot not a bot? According to Pokerstars, it's when a human presses the buttons

This is a disturbing story regarding Pokerstars and their view on bots, but before I get to that, I want to tell you about a 4th grader I know named Billy.

Billy is not good at math. He keeps failing the tests, and his mother is concerned. So his mother goes in to visit the teacher, and suggests a way to improve Billy's performance in the class:

"I'll come in on test days, sit next to Billy, and whisper the answers to him. Then he will write them down. I bet he'll get 100%!", suggests the delusional mom.

"That sounds like a great idea!", says the teacher. "I wouldn't allow you to take the test for Billy, but if you just whisper the answer to him and he writes them down on his own, I can't see how that could be considered cheating. See you on Thursday for our next test!"

If the above scenario played out, you would think that Billy's teacher must be one of the biggest idiots in the world of education.

And yet that's exactly how Pokerstars has decided they are going to handle "manual bot" programs.

Allow me to explain.

A high stakes player on Pokerstars known as skier_5 has developed "player aid" software for Heads Up Sit-n-Gos (HUSNGs).

This software is not a traditional bot, in that it does not operate the Pokerstars software for you. The player has to be present to actually press the buttons to bet/call/raise/fold.

However, the software does advise players what it believes to be the optimal plays, based upon the cards dealt and the bets made.

skier_5 describes the software as a "chart" simply stating what to do in various situations. Charts have always been allowed to be used by most sites (and even in live poker), as they simply give general advice on how to play, and do not modify their advice based upon the opponent or match actually taking place.

Apparently the skier_5 software DOES modify its charts/advice based upon the actual play in the HUSNG, thereby behaving much more like a bot than a chart.

This situation was made public by ChicagoRy of 2+2, who also runs the site husng.com: http://www.husng.com/content/controv...yer-aid-husngs

Shockingly, Pokerstars said that this software was okay, and within their terms of service! Why did they come to that conclusion? They determined that the player is ultimately making the decisions and actually pressing the buttons, so the software is only "advice" and therefore not a bot.

WHAT?!

They're basically taking the position that you can use bots on their site, as long as the bot just tells you what buttons to push, rather than pushing them for you. Why does it matter if you press the bet/call/fold buttons yourself instead of a bot doing it, if you're still drawing from the identical advice from software directing automated play? Somehow Pokerstars thinks that matters.

Indeed, it appears that the three most frequent users of the software, allingirl777, freechdogg and skier_5, all have nearly identical stats in many situations, especially preflop. Also, it has been accused that skier_5 is "renting" the software to players in exchange for a percentage of their profits! Shaaaaaaaady!

skier_5 posted the following weak defense of his software on 2+2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skier_5

I have a few things to say:

1) There is no automated decision software.

2) Poker is a competitive game so I’m sure all of you understand my unwillingness to go into further details or address specific points of the accusations.

3) As mentioned in the article Pokerstars did a thorough investigation and found us to be within the TOS. Ryan (owner of HUSNG.com) knows this and yet he still writes an article full of hyperbole based on guesses and wild accusations many of which are clearly not in line with the TOS of Pokerstars.

4) While it may be obvious to those involved in HUSNG, Ryan sells a variety of content and has a large stable of horses. Coffeeyay is basically a full-time coach who provides his students with numerous pre flop charts. I don’t think I need to point out the both the conflict of interest and the hypocrisy in this pointed attack.

5) Ryan came to me asking for a comment prior to publishing this article:
“i’m working on a story about the "controversy" surrounding your techniques/information
trying to have a balanced story that has the facts out there so that people can make a real judgement and not just hysteria (or out of context "bots" type stuff)
i guess if you have an argument you'd like to share about why it should be OK, that would be ideal for me... what i plan to go with absent anything else is more along the lines of "nash type charts are allowed during play" i'm not sure that's maximally compelling though
(and i will be mentioning that stars says it is OK, but you know that stuff is constantly changing)”

As you might expect, I’m not going to volunteer information for no reason, so I declined to comment. I’ll let you judge whether he followed through with the way he presented his intentions to me. I refer you to point 3.

6) I thank the few people with sense in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokerstars TOS

5.5 EXTERNAL PLAYER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS (EPA).

PokerStars prohibits those External Player Assistance Programs ("EPA Programs") which are designed to provide an "Unfair Advantage" to players. PokerStars defines "External" to mean computer software (other than the Software), and non-software-based databases or profiles (e.g. web sites and subscription services). PokerStars defines an "Unfair Advantage" as any instance in which a User accesses or compiles information on other players beyond that which the User has personally observed through the User's own game play. We encourage you to read our Third Party Tools and Services FAQ.

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7) I think this clause actually refers to things like against TOS data mining sites. You know, like the one which my results and stats were taken from and posted all over Skype?

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So let's break down the above:

First off, skier_5 is very evasive in describing the software, even in the most general terms. He simply says that it's "not automated decision software", but will not describe what it is, or why it isn't actually making decisions based upon the running game. So I don't buy this. If there were an easy defense to these charges, he would have given them and ended the controversy immediately.

He also seems to be attacking the accusers, in this case ChicagoRy and Coffeyay (who commented in ChicagoRy's article). That's always the sign of something shady going on, where the accused attempts to discredit the people calling him out, rather than face the accusations head on.

Most interesting, he claims he isn't violating the Pokerstars TOS both because they approved the use of his program, and that section 5.5 posted above only refers to datamining, not botting. And indeed, if you read section 5.5 of the TOS, they ban the use of "external programs" which compile or use information on players, but do NOT seem to deal with bots.

However, the next section, 5.6, specifically addresses bots:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokerstars TOS

5.6 AUTOMATIC PLAYERS (BOTS).
The use of artificial intelligence including, without limitation, "robots" is strictly forbidden in connection with the Service. All actions taken in relation to the Service by a User must be executed personally by players through the user interface accessible by use of the Software.

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And if you read the part I bolded above, therein lies the problem. The Pokestars TOS does NOT forbid the usage of bots which direct you how to play. It only forbids bots which actually fully play by themselves.

That's a huge omission, as the point of a bot is to make perfect decisions based on optimal game theory, not to make it easier for the player to click buttons. The button clicking is a formality, and in fact could literally be done by an 8-year-old child.

A player on Pokerstars e-mailed support to get clarification on a different third party software package ("StarsHelper"), and got the following answer:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokerstars

Thank you for contacting PokerStars.

StarsHelper does not use any information not available to any observer of the game, nor does it use any means to automate play or assist in cheating (such as sharing hole cards with others).

Therefore, this program, and others like it are permitted for use on PokerStars. Specifically prohibited are programs that share hole cards, or automate the play of the game so that it can run unattended.

You may find our policy on such software in section 5.5 of our terms of services at: https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/

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Wow.

Pokerstars has operated for 13 years, and still hasn't banned the use of automated decision programs. All you have to do is press the buttons yourself, and it's all good.

Terrible.

I really hope they change this policy.

Here is the 2+2 thread, in case you want to read it: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...tware-1533249/

StarsHelper is an unrelated program.

http://starshelper.net/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Max Cut

StarsHelper is an unrelated program.

http://starshelper.net/

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Thanks. The guy posting about that on 2+2 must have been confused.

I'll fix my OP.

hope they change this in the tos

The whole thing could be fixed by simply making it against the TOS to run software giving strategy advice based upon the current running game, including your holecards, your stack size, opponent stack size, or anything else.

From what I can tell, the skier_5 software doesn't use player-specific data to make decisions, but rather makes decisions based upon your holdings, your bet amount, your opponents' stack size, and your opponents' bet amount.

And yeah, all of this could be put into a massive paper chart which would cover 180 football fields, but that's not really a chart. And a piece of software condensing that into either data that can be manually input or auto-read from the software is cheating, because it's giving advice based upon calculations it's making from real time data.

If it really is a "chart", it should be something you can print out and have next to you, and that would solve the ambiguity as to whether or not it's a bot or just a general guideline for play.

So I found this on the Pokerstars Third Party Tools page:

https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/

Quote:

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The following types of tools and services are prohibited:

1. Any tool or service that shares hole card data with other players or servicesis colluding, and is prohibited.

2. Any tool or service that works off of a central database of player profiles or hands played is prohibited.

3. Any tool or service that plays without human intervention (a ‘bot’) or reduces the requirement of a human playing. For instance, an ‘auto-folder’ is prohibited.

4. The practice of datamining (observing games without playing in order to build up a database of hand histories for future reference) is prohibited.

5. Any tool or service that offers dynamic, real-time commentary or advice on the current game state that goes beyond reporting data and statistics.

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So that would mean #5 on this TOS would be violated by skier_5's software.

That makes it especially odd that Pokerstars is claiming their TOS were not violated by his program.

I am presuming he is hiding behind the "chart" excuse -- basically that his program makes decisions based upon stack sizes, hole cards, and actions within the hand, and that such information could techincally be printed on a (ridiculously large) paper chart without being tailored to opponents' specific tendencies. This would especially be true if the advice is only pre-flop, where the actual community cards are not utilized by the program (and obviously the opponents' hole cards are not known in any way.)

So, in an obvious example, if you raise on the button with TT and get 3-bet by the BB, if you committed 15% of your stack to the raise and your opponent made it 45% of your stack by the reraise, the software would tell you to shove.

Still, that sort of thing should not be allowed.

Any software which provides ANY kind of advice based upon ANY data gathered from a hand in play (or manually entered by the user) should be against their TOS.

Listened to this Pokerstars Steve explanation (albeit kinda vague) today on a podcast.

The way it sounded is that the program is voice recognized and not in client, so is on another computer/laptop. Which makes sense because, someone said they played 'allingirll' and pointed out the girl takes a LOOONG time to act. This would explain why. So skier etc are explaining the hand/board/stacks etc into a 'bot' on a separate puter, which is then giving them the optimal 'GTO' plays in return. Then just manually acting following.

Because it's not in game and is via a 3rd party source or another computer, it is not technically against the current TOS. I could have misunderstanded some of this, but that is the gist of what I gathered. Also, he basically said this program had 3 layers/steps, the first of which was the voice part. SO they are telling this automated bot what the board/stacks etc are and it is using GTO and spitting out the optimal plays which they are simply just following. Also the only way skier and this allingirls stats can be so identical if not using this exact same process, is if they are multi accounting.

This is no longer 'playing poker'. This has started an arms race and something tells me HUSNG is just the beginning. Smaller structure games are already probably being destroyed by people using similar tech. Online poker as you knew it folks, is effectively dead. Better brush up on your huge field MTT strat imo.

As garrett mentioned, "Pokerstars Steve" (employee) appeared on the 2+2 pokercast yesterday and discussed the situation.

Among the things he said:

- skier_5 submitted the software for review, prior to using it. Pokerstars approved it, likening it to a chart.

- The software only advises pre-flop during the hand

- It is voice activated. You say, "I have Q5 off suit in the big blind with 15 blinds left in my stack", and it advises what to do.

- It does not use actual gameplay to advise in real time

- A companion package uses random numbers to tell you what to do in "Do this 70% of the time, do this 30% of the time" situations

- After the hand is over, it analyzes the entire hand and tells you what you did right or wrong

- Pokerstars is discussing whether to change their TOS to prohibit this

- Pokerstars is afraid that TOS changes will accidentally prohibit harmless software packages, due to new, strict rules being enforced about certain issues

Starts about 2 hours 15 minutes into: http://www.twitch.tv/pokercast/b/661050529

Sound quality isn't very good on Steve's end.

Another part of this that I found interesting is when Pokerstars Steve touched on how Pokerstars security/game integrity people were not all in agreement on this. And that it would be revisited in the very near future, tomorrow next iirc. It seemed the majority (however many that may or may not be) agreed currently its not a clear violation of TOS but that tomorrow they were having another meeting. Is the majority just Michael Josem and maybe another or so, who knows.

Also what was shocking was him saying the Pokerstars TOS haven't been updated in YEARS. What, so over them same years all of these game neutralizing softwares have surfaced and yet the TOS hasn't been revisited to now. That was a little shocking, but not sure that is on Amaya or the previous owners.

To have years old TOS in today's technological climate relating to online poker, is laughable. If nothing more maybe a change in TOS will result from this to better fit todays playing climate.

They need to ban all forms of software, huds, scripts, ect ect.. table camping , all that shit. these fuckers are destroying online poker one day at a time.
Im almost 100% sure there are insanely good bots on bovada, these fuckers play 40+ vpip and play perfectly

SEEING AS THIS SITE IS NOT CENSORED AND i CANT SAY IT ON 2P2

IF YOU READ THIS SKIER 5 YOU SIR ARE A FUCKING SCUMBAG CHEATING SELFISH COCKSUCKER. HOPE YOU CATCH HERPES OR SOMETHING YOU PIECE OF SHIT. YOU ARE A WELL KNOWN BUMNHUNTING SCUMBAG AND NOW YOU HAVE SOFTWARE THAT DOES ALL THE WORK FOR YOU? GO GET AIDS ASSHOLE

I actually agree with little Richard on this one!!

Except for the part of wishing harm on another..

The software and even Huds fuck up the game.

Software assisted play is ugly. Maybe huds get a pass, but even that's a bit of a questionable area. This other shit is a joke. Its a bunch of cyborgs playing. This stuff continues and there will not be a recreational pool left just some bad "pro" players who fail to use the software optimally.

BUMP

Pokerstars listened to the outrage, and is probably going to change their policy.

Poker room manager Steve Day had this to say:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Day

As evidenced by recent forum discussion, the topic of third-party software in online poker is a highly complex and contentious issue. As new software is developed, we must keep our rules enforcement up to date and also consider when rules need to be changed.

A developer recently shared new software with us for evaluation and we informed him that the software was allowable. The decision was based around the premise that static reference material that does not change depending on action in the hand, or any other variable, is permitted. This rule was initially designed some years ago so that Nash charts and other similar documents would be permitted to be referenced while playing.

The software we reviewed allows quick and precise reference to a very large number of static charts that cover most or all preflop situations. While within our current rules, this software goes beyond the level of assistance we want to see software providing players in our online poker room.

As a result, we are strongly considering changing our current policies.

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He then stated that Pokerstars will likely soon add this term to their TOS:

Quote:

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Any tool or reference material that offers commentary or advice that goes beyond a basic level, such as stack-size-based starting hand tables, decision trees or heads-up displays that dynamically change based on player action or card values.

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This would make the skier_5 software against the Pokerstars TOS.

Basically they are doing exactly what I suggested initially -- removing all automated "charts" which couldn't actually be printed out and used in reasonable fashion via hardcopy. That's not their exact wording, but that's what they're going for.

Glad to see there's some progress here.

Apparently they haven't decided for sure, and are still mulling this one over. Any rule changes will have a minimum 10 day grace period before they are enforced.

PokerStars Bans Skier_5 Software, Are HUDS Next?

http://www.cardschat.com/news/pokers...uds-next-13595

Lots of changes going into effect on Pokerstars regarding HUDs, seating/registration scripts,etc...

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/1...utm_source=rss

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker

Lots of changes going into effect on Pokerstars regarding HUDs, seating/registration scripts,etc...

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/1...utm_source=rss

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Not a coincidence that this comes on the heels of their announcement of being approved in N.J. to operate in the U.S again.

The NJ Department of Gaming Enforcement is powerful and automation is not a game they are going to let happen. And this will have far reaching changes to Pokerstars future course. I think some of this decision came from their meetings with the N.J DGE of what will be allowed and clearly won't ever be moving forward on legal U.S sites. Pokerstars has no choice but to play by the rules now so this is telling in that sense also.

I do feel for the developers of some of the software since it appeared like this stuff would be approved forever so they spent their time and money into developing programs that are deemed worthless now.

The problem now is some of the changes are either vague or going to confuse the average person as far as what is allowed and what isn't. They still allow HUDs but some new restrictions were added, whereas Party Poker is eliminating the use of all third party software including HUDs.

http://uk.pokernews.com/news/2015/10...ield-19256.htm

I think it's great personally to remove HUDs for in game play and force players to adapt without them but the break even rakeback grinding, in game stat nerd is going to suffer big time.

They shpuld remove huds from these so called online poker pros...

B & p is always fair rationel and well thought out..

I'm no expert but can't you just run the poker client sandboxed inside a virtual machine? Or screen scrape to your hud/software/bot on an entirely separate cpu?

Potential bot scandal again over on Pokerstars in TCOOP event #8. The player named "IvanHaldi" is the one in question.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...-08-a-1584765/

http://tiltbook.com/images/uploaded_...34bcb112f2.png