20 Years Ago Today: A troll post wihch changed my life (and probably some of your lives, too)

[Dan Druff]

On May 17, 2004, I became aware of a site called neverwinpoker.com.

It was a fan site for Dustin "neverwin" Woolf, a spewy semidonk from 2003 who suddenly was crushing the Pokerstars games in 2004.

neverwin was on the way to winning $1,000,000 at the $100/$200 limit holdem game that year -- an astounding feat, especially given the tough competition. Much of this was heads up, where his smart aggressive style took players by surprise.

Dustin befriended another young guy he had met at Harrah's Chicago, a former Indiana University student named Bryan Micon, who was unknown in the poker community, and had previously been trying to make a name for himself running various gimmicky websites.

Micon had the idea to create a fan site for Dustin, given the amazing Pokerstars run which was starting to attract a lot of attention.

But was there really a market for an entire site and forum based around a Johnny-come-lately online poker pro? The answer was no. neverwinpoker.com was definitely headed for obscurity, and was likely to fall by the wayside quickly, as many other fleeting poker forums at the time did.

However, being a rival of neverwin's on Pokerstars, I decided to show up and make the following troll post:

Subject: Save neverwin's Mercedes!
Date: May 17, 2004, 5:01am



neverwin has purchased an expensive new Mercedes with some of the poker winnings that he luckily stumbled into on Pokerstars this spring.

However, instead of smartly making an all-cash purchase, he financed half of the car at the usurious interest rate of 9%!!!

Given the likelihood that neverwin will either tilt off the rest of his winnings (or challenge players heads up who are too tough for him at high limit games), I don't have a good feeling about the future of his vehicle.

Please join me in convincing neverwin to pay off his car outright, so he'll at least have a nice car to pretend he's rich in, after the inevitable bust-out.

Thank you for your time and support.

Dan Druff

https://web.archive.org/web/20040907...=viewtopic&t=1



This post was based upon neverwin bragging in the Pokerstars chat that he had just bought a Mercedes with some of his winnings, but had financed half of it at 9% -- then a fairly bad interest rate for auto financing.

I started taunting him that he should have bought the whole thing in cash, because it was going to be repossessed soon after I busted him. (He ended up proving me wrong on that one!)

Very shortly thereafter, I became aware of the new forum, and made the above post -- 20 years ago today.


The post was a big hit. First off, people were enjoying seeing a Dan Druff / neverwin rivalry start to play out there. Second, it reshaped the tone of the forum. This and other posts of mine transformed neverwinpoker from a Dustin Woolf fan site to a free speech haven -- kind of the anti-2+2, which was heavily censored at the time. And it took off from there.

Had I never made this post, it's highly likely neverwinpoker would have died before it really got going. There wouldn't have been a Donkdown or Poker Fraud Alert. Most of you would have never known each other. My entire trajectory in the poker community would have been vastly different -- perhaps better in some ways, and definitely worse in others.

It's funny how an inconsequential troll post 20 years ago could have had such an impact on my own future.

[tgull]

We all have these poker introduction posts. Mine was home "sick" from work and got wrapped into an ESPN poker tourney on cable in 2003. Not seen it before, and outside some casual home games, never really played poker. Then on the commercials, it was Party Poker this, that, etc.. Made that fateful deposit and changed the course of my life.

I recovered in spectacular fashion after a 5 year downward odyssey. But let me tell you, the most crippling effect x 100 is going to be what is a near nationwide online sports betting mania/epidemic. You are going to get zombie teenagers and 20 somethings just ruined. Plenty will go to college with the best intentions, and discover online sports betting in their dorm, and it will be over. I had the maturity in my 30s to break the cycle, some 22 year old will just get in deeper until its too late. Loose credit now, you will see kids in college with $50K in debt before they even graduate. I know a parent whose kid stole his Mom's credit card earlier this year and was able to lose it all on a second half bet on the Lions on the NFC Championship game, like $8K or something. Scary shit.

[NickyPipes]

It’s a clever troll to hit somebody on their auto interest rate

Before you started posting what was that forum like?

Dorks sitting around chatting about his poker stars hands?

[sonatine]

It’s a clever troll to hit somebody on their auto interest rate

Before you started posting what was that forum like?

Dorks sitting around chatting about his poker stars hands?

i posted a lot of trans women.



like _a lot_ a lot.

[Sanlmar]

It’s a clever troll to hit somebody on their auto interest rate

Before you started posting what was that forum like?

Dorks sitting around chatting about his poker stars hands?

You really have no personal reference for what an absolute cultural phenomenon poker was that year except for the recent fentanyl craze.

Poker appeared to be so god damned sexy and information was difficult to come (interwebz infancy) - that just made it even more alluring.

Forums couldn’t begin to satisfy the lust to be on the inside

[BCR]

It’s a clever troll to hit somebody on their auto interest rate

Before you started posting what was that forum like?

Dorks sitting around chatting about his poker stars hands?

You really have no personal reference for what an absolute cultural phenomenon poker was that year except for the recent fentanyl craze.

Poker appeared to be so god damned sexy and information was difficult to come (interwebz infancy) - that just made it even more alluring.

Forums couldn’t begin to satisfy the lust to be on the inside

Every celebrity wanted to be a poker player. Crazy time. I played on Planet Poker in 2000, but it wasn't yet big. Then I got sick in 2001 and UB launched that same year and I did little else for the next 5 years stuck at home. UB was always my site. I can still remember my foils. Krazy Kanuck(Jim Worth) who still is playing when I just googled him.

Heads up sng all day at the highest table which was $200 at the time. Two guys consistently beat me. Krazy Kanuck and someone named like jacksup. They'd get me like 60/40. Anyone else was in trouble. Then the nightly $109.Weekend $215. I was really sick so often I wish I had more energy. I'd crack the pocket fives top 25 or whatever it was for a week and be sick for a month and play an hour a day. I'd run up $20k and go sit limit with stuckinpgh, later reggiman on forums at 30/60. sit with Pralahd at 25/50 for an hour. That rarely went well. Didn't matter. You'd lose $15k and run it back up so easily on $50 or $100 HU sngs. I'd keep track on scratch paper next to my computer. Win column. Lost column. Games were so easy that you could win over 70% at $100 level for large samples. Players were that bad early. By late 2000s the biggest winners at 50 were barely profitable.


UB was the small site compared to Pokerstars and Party Poker. Would still have 40k cash game players on every night by 2003 or 2004. I played them all, but UB was my favorite. After WPT launched in 2002, you could talk about poker with a guy in line at the grocery store as easily as the Steelers. It was that big. Whole sections of Barnes&Noble where they relegated the latest Steven King and Dean Koontz novels to secondary placement, so you'd see poker everything the minute you walked in.

I actually recall being a 32 year old man and taking Hellmuth telling me to play like an eagle seriously. Not that seriously, as he was already a bit clownish, but a little serious. I read the book.

That the site launched in 2004 was perfect timing. Some of us had played for 3 years already, but there wasn't yet that mystique. WPT created that. Dan Harrington books. Then my personal favorite, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positively_Fifth_Street. James McManus poker/true crime novel about Binnion son death. Also released in 2004. Hung on every word. The WSOP tournament section where he plays. Talking about TJ Cloutier like he was this mystical soul reader. We didn't know he was a broke degenerate. Jesus Ferguson. Kid Poker. All of it. Hung on every word and its hilarious now.

I actually downloaded Pokerstars Pa a few weekends ago when I was stuck there all weekend. I got to the lobby on a Friday night and watched it take an hour for a 6 man $20 sng to fill up. The tourneys were $50 with $4k guarantees and 4 hour rebuy periods and it just made me sad.

Never deposited a dollar to even check it out because I didn't feel like dealing with the identity shit if I won. Cash games were decently busy at like .25/.50 and then dead all the way up to about a half dozen tables of 5/10 and 10/20 and 20/50. My play always fell off greatly playing 6 tables, my brain didn't work like that already being in my early 30s during the boom, so I looked for the bigger games. I clicked on the higher stakes tables and it was basically the same six names at every table and I knew I'd be wading into a tight group of Philly dudes probably all sharing cards waiting for me to show up.

Worst part is PA is one of busier online states. They have like 6 poker sites for maybe 2000 regular cash players. Just a sad thing to see.

I still can't believe how they fucked up online poker. During the worst time of my life it was the greatest distraction in the world. Just log in and play against people from all over the world. Busy 24/7. Six and nine man sngs for $109 would fill up in 20 seconds on five different sites at 4AM. You could play tourneys for $40k up top in the middle of the night on Tuesday. God I miss it.

[Sanlmar]

We all have these poker introduction posts. Mine was home "sick" from work and got wrapped into an ESPN poker tourney on cable in 2003. Not seen it before, and outside some casual home games, never really played poker. Then on the commercials, it was Party Poker this, that, etc.. Made that fateful deposit and changed the course of my life.

I recovered in spectacular fashion after a 5 year downward odyssey. But let me tell you, the most crippling effect x 100 is going to be what is a near nationwide online sports betting mania/epidemic. You are going to get zombie teenagers and 20 somethings just ruined. Plenty will go to college with the best intentions, and discover online sports betting in their dorm, and it will be over. I had the maturity in my 30s to break the cycle, some 22 year old will just get in deeper until its too late. Loose credit now, you will see kids in college with $50K in debt before they even graduate. I know a parent whose kid stole his Mom's credit card earlier this year and was able to lose it all on a second half bet on the Lions on the NFC Championship game, like $8K or something. Scary shit.

Placing a same game parlay on a 10:10pm Dodgers game might lead to financial distress but it isn’t going to keep you from chemistry class or interfere with you writing a paper for a literature professor. You can still wait tables at Olive Garden if you have a 5 leg parlay on the NBA.

Poker demanded your time and was completely immersive. The time stolen was more insidious than the money lost. Careers and education put on hold and often never resumed. Poker was far more consuming than sharing baseball picks with your bros

[Sanlmar]

I listened to the opening few minutes of the “All In” Podcast with Chamath, David Sacks etc and they mentioned playing w/ Jennifer Tilly and offered a self absorbed Hellmuth anecdote.

They could not say enough nice things about Tilly. Sacks described seeing a beautiful Porsche outside with the license plate “DJen”. I could immediately picture Tilly and Unabomber on Poker After Dark. I was curious what they look like now but chose instead to just keep my memories.

Bunch of billionaires our age still playing and the old names still popping up.

You really gotta be in the right frame of mind for that insufferable “All In” crew and I wasn’t so I put it off for later. The ideas offered every week are worth it.

[Dan Druff]

It’s a clever troll to hit somebody on their auto interest rate

Before you started posting what was that forum like?

Dorks sitting around chatting about his poker stars hands?

i posted a lot of trans women.



like _a lot_ a lot.

True but that was 3 years later.

[BCR]

The funny part is I can recall when a Dwan, Charder, empiremaker2 and all the kids who would later become pros were just low stakes kids to me on NWP. They were all in college and had to work their way up from a series of $50 deposits. I was 31 and was married with no kids. I learned to play at 5/10 from the start and it felt like they were just little low stakes kids.

Then I recall a few years later when I'd see empiremaker playing like 6 tables on party with 2k sitting in front of him and charder starting to rise. That whole shipitholla crew starting to have big scores as they learned the game and surpassed all of us who had started at a higher level and didn't really study. Early days all those young kids were scared money and you could steal pots off them with ease because 1k was a lot to them. You could feel it when you played them. They knew they had you, but they couldn't pull the trigger. A few years later, all those kids could eat you up.

[BCR]

I can’t remember if it was Weiss or Razor, but does anyone have that post from when they were mocking Micon when he first moved to Vegas and was sleeping in bunk beds with the caveman looking kid? I thought about it during the last bitcoin runup and what a strange trip he had from poker forum kid to btc mogul. I can’t remember the exact wording of it, just something about visiting his neighbors in the bunk above, but I recall it as one of the funniest posts ever on NWP/DD? Can’t recall which variation we were at. I was wondering if the humor still held up.

[Dan Druff]

I can’t remember if it was Weiss or Razor, but does anyone have that post from when they were mocking Micon when he first moved to Vegas and was sleeping in bunk beds with the caveman looking kid? I thought about it during the last bitcoin runup and what a strange trip he had from poker forum kid to btc mogul. I can’t remember the exact wording of it, just something about visiting his neighbors in the bunk above, but I recall it as one of the funniest posts ever on NWP/DD? Can’t recall which variation we were at. I was wondering if the humor still held up.

It was Weiss, and it was referring to GambleAB (Aaron Bartley).

Aaron was a nice guy, but took a lot of shit on NWP for some reason. He did somehow get a sweetheart deal as a Full Tilt red pro, despite not having the qualifications to become one. I do remember he tried to pitch them making me into a red pro (I didn't ask him to do this), but the guy making the decisions didn't care for me personally, and blew him off. Nice of him to suggest, though.

I wonder where he is now.

[garrett]

It’s a clever troll to hit somebody on their auto interest rate

Before you started posting what was that forum like?

Dorks sitting around chatting about his poker stars hands?

i posted a lot of trans women.



like _a lot_ a lot.

[Sanlmar]

i posted a lot of trans women.



like _a lot_ a lot.

Again, Pipes is scratching his head why this would be remarkable in any way.

[BCR]

I can’t remember if it was Weiss or Razor, but does anyone have that post from when they were mocking Micon when he first moved to Vegas and was sleeping in bunk beds with the caveman looking kid? I thought about it during the last bitcoin runup and what a strange trip he had from poker forum kid to btc mogul. I can’t remember the exact wording of it, just something about visiting his neighbors in the bunk above, but I recall it as one of the funniest posts ever on NWP/DD? Can’t recall which variation we were at. I was wondering if the humor still held up.

It was Weiss, and it was referring to GambleAB (Aaron Bartley).

Aaron was a nice guy, but took a lot of shit on NWP for some reason. He did somehow get a sweetheart deal as a Full Tilt red pro, despite not having the qualifications to become one. I do remember he tried to pitch them making me into a red pro (I didn't ask him to do this), but the guy making the decisions didn't care for me personally, and blew him off. Nice of him to suggest, though.

I wonder where he is now.

That was it. I often think about those early kids and what became of the ones who still don't play. Usually, you can google them and find some LinkedIn and they went to coding bootcamp or went back home to some family business and are doing well. Some seemed to have dropped off the earth. I always worry about the ones that have their last hendon mob score in 2012 and are seemingly absent from the face of the earth.

[Sloppy Joe]

Safe to say that Micon never becomes a billionaire without Druff's incredibly funny troll post that was a huge hit.

No NWP makes it likely he never builds a roll, gets involved with SWC, goes from fugitive felon to well respected billionaire beloved and embraced by poker elite as Druff carries the forum torch into the 8th tier night.

Life comes at you fast!

[BetCheckBet]

https://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sh...e-2004-edition

[Sloppy Joe]

[tgull]

We all have these poker introduction posts. Mine was home "sick" from work and got wrapped into an ESPN poker tourney on cable in 2003. Not seen it before, and outside some casual home games, never really played poker. Then on the commercials, it was Party Poker this, that, etc.. Made that fateful deposit and changed the course of my life.

I recovered in spectacular fashion after a 5 year downward odyssey. But let me tell you, the most crippling effect x 100 is going to be what is a near nationwide online sports betting mania/epidemic. You are going to get zombie teenagers and 20 somethings just ruined. Plenty will go to college with the best intentions, and discover online sports betting in their dorm, and it will be over. I had the maturity in my 30s to break the cycle, some 22 year old will just get in deeper until its too late. Loose credit now, you will see kids in college with $50K in debt before they even graduate. I know a parent whose kid stole his Mom's credit card earlier this year and was able to lose it all on a second half bet on the Lions on the NFC Championship game, like $8K or something. Scary shit.

Placing a same game parlay on a 10:10pm Dodgers game might lead to financial distress but it isn’t going to keep you from chemistry class or interfere with you writing a paper for a literature professor. You can still wait tables at Olive Garden if you have a 5 leg parlay on the NBA.

Poker demanded your time and was completely immersive. The time stolen was more insidious than the money lost. Careers and education put on hold and often never resumed. Poker was far more consuming than sharing baseball picks with your bros

Not really. You are talking about the casual gambler. I am talking about the guy who watches the games start to finish and adjusts his bets quarter by quarter. I remember in college before the internet, college dorms were students hovered around the lobby TV screaming because they all had bets they could not afford, with bookies. Most people young and old, just don't make a bet and check it the next morning like a lottery ticket. They are actively watching. It's like when I buy a stock, its not like I check it COB Friday. I check it multiple times a day. Then you get the guy who spends hours researching lines, injuries, etc.. I get what you are saying, yes poker you can play 20 hours straight. But most people betting sports are not just making a parlay and checking in the next day, they are pacing in front of their TV with phone in hand.

[NickyPipes]

Safe to say that Micon never becomes a billionaire without Druff's incredibly funny troll post that was a huge hit.

No NWP makes it likely he never builds a roll, gets involved with SWC, goes from fugitive felon to well respected billionaire beloved and embraced by poker elite as Druff carries the forum torch into the 8th tier night.

Life comes at you fast!

Good point

I agree that Bryant owes all his success to Todd Druff